Project Management 4 – Visibility

Brida Audio
Brida Audio
Project Management 4 - Visibility

Podcast Transcription

Frank: All right, gentlemen, we are live. Igor, project management part four, the final. Off you go, it’s all yours.

Igor: Yeah, so since it’s the final, I would like to do a little bit different today. I don’t have many topics to discuss, but I would like to tell a story which recently happened to me and use it as an excuse to have an interesting discussion about project management.

So, as Frank knows, Ritesh also knows, I got a promotion very recently, I would say two weeks ago, something like that. And it was a good promotion because pretty much I joined the company where I work right now to take care of one project. It went very well in terms of growth, which is my job to drive growth to the project.

And my boss, his name is Spencer Greenberg, he offered me the opportunity to take care of the growth of all the projects across the company. And we had like four big projects. So I went from take care of one project to take care of four projects. And I’m very excited for that because now I’m going to have a team. So far in the past one and a half year, I was pretty much myself. I had like a copywriter. He was and he still is like my colleague. I don’t manage him, but now I have people to manage. So I have a designer, I have an assistant, I have a copywriter soon.

So that promotion was very meaningful for me because, as Frank just said, before we start recording, there is a long time. How did you say it, Frank? I like how you say it. Like you don’t have a job. You use a very interesting term.

Frank: I mean, I’m unemployable. I said, yeah, I’ve been self-employed for 13 years. And I thought maybe because India has so many lovely holidays, I could go there. I was told the work culture is different and I’m unemployable because I haven’t had a boss tell me what to do for most of my work.

Igor The word I was looking for is self-employed. Although maybe I am unemployable as well, if I think about that. But yeah, so I am self-employed for a long time before having this job. And this is like how I got it is another story. But I had this feeling since I never like I there’s a long time I didn’t have a boss. I had my questions regarding how I’m going to grow within a company if the company is not mine. So the promotion means a lot to me because now I kind of understand how to grow within a company. And not only understanding theory, but also in practice. And I’m telling this because we talked about a lot of stuff in this series. But something we didn’t talk about, and I would say it’s very important, is authority.

How you create authority to be seen within your environment. Be it a company or if you have a company, be seen as authority for your clients, your peers, etc. And there is a saying that says that when you don’t know what to do, you should do the thing that will help you to do more stuff. So if we think about that, let’s say you have a lot of things to do, which one of those things will help you to do the other things, right? And I always think about this saying, especially because by the nature of my job, I always had hundreds of things to do. Sometimes very small things, but still hundreds of things.

And when I think about how I got to this point within the company, I can track back to the same. Because everything I do, it’s kind of automatic for me right now because I used to have a company that provided service for dozens of clients. So it was like a requirement to keep the clients with my company is to show what I’m doing, what results I’m driving, right? So we will have to show it because by showing it, you create authority. And something I just list two things I did and then I would like to start a discussion with both of you.

So the first thing I did is every time I have the opportunity, I will comment about a failure or success I had regarding some things people are discussing. So let’s say I am in a meeting and someone is talking about referral programs. I will talk about something I did regarding referral programs just to show that I did or I’m doing something regarding this specific topic.

So just because something didn’t work or something sounds small in your head, you shouldn’t not talk about that. Because especially if you work remote, you have to talk so people know what you’re doing.

So that’s the first thing. Don’t miss opportunities to tell your achievements or at least your failures, which is okay most of the time.

The second thing is showing reports. So I am like in industry, Frank probably know it better than me, but the industry is very standard to have reports about growth. Because that’s the nature of the business and also industries, usually they are bigger companies.

They have more people and reports are kind of the backbone of the thing from a management perspective. But in small companies, it’s surprising, but a lot of small companies, they don’t have reports regarding growth. They have reports about financials, they have reports about sometimes like employee satisfaction, client satisfaction.

But they don’t have a report which shows, okay, we are growing this much in this channel because of X, Y, and Z. And then that was one of the first things I started doing. No one understood in the beginning because we are a small company. And a small company which like most of the important decisions were concentrated in the boss like Spencer.

But I started this culture because I knew it would be weird to one year later say, hey guys, look how I am good. Look how I’m driving results. So I wanted to start it from the beginning because then people would see that things are growing and I wouldn’t have to bring this stock like one year later.

And the third thing, it’s making myself available. So this promotion came because one of my colleagues, he was leading the company. And two projects would be left without like a manager. He wasn’t a manager in the first place, but still he was in theory the manager of those two projects.

And I always told Spencer that I would be glad to take care of more projects because I think I have potential and knowledge for that. And when the time came, I was prepared for that. And I can tell like maybe five examples of when in my life, when the opportunity came, I was a little bit lucky, but also I was prepared for that.

So those are the three main topics. Sorry for talking too much. And I want to make a question. So going back to the concept that when you have many things to do, you should do the things that will help you to do more of those things you have to do.

Can you think of something in your life or in your job right now that if you are able to solve it, it will help you to solve many other things?

Ritesh: Yes. So first of all, the work I do, like I interact with all the team members and it is not required for me to be part of in those meetings, but for my interest, I go in those meetings.

And what I notice that people ask a lot of questions. But what happens that sometimes you what you do that you assume that this is the normal things. You don’t have to ask that question. That is a silly question. You can’t ask. And I feel that that thing to ask question should come inside me and it will help everything like you just assume things that it will be like this.

But sometimes there is a hidden things in that question. And I feel that I should have this way of asking more suitable questions for the project or the idea what they are working on. But actually, that is not my job to ask the questions. But if I want to grow in that area, I should have the ability to ask questions and be more vocal about my ideas.

Igor So you mean like that? You mean that if you make more questions, like if you develop the skill of making more and better questions, it will help you to address or solve more things regarding our job?

Ritesh: Yes. So that asking questions give clarity. Sometimes what you do, you just assume things like this is the easiest thing and you don’t have to ask questions.

But when you ask that, you get more details about that thing and you can see the complication in that thing. And it can help me also see whatever I’m doing. I’m working for a long time.

So I know the in and out of the project, but it can help me to transfer and become more involved in different role. And if I’m not asking, then I will continue what I’m doing right now.

Igor: Good point. And you Frank?

Frank: Where do I start? I think this whole thing can be summarized in one word.

So, Igor, you said to comment on successes and failures, to report growth and to make yourself available. Those were the three points that you said. And Ritesh, you asking questions, even if you’re not the one who shouldn’t be asking the question or not authorized the question.

There is a word that ties all of this together and that is, for me at least, visibility. It may be appropriate, it may not be appropriate, but at least you will be noticed.

And in my own case, I want this breeder community to grow and I have to be visible.

And how do you do this? You go into areas where you have no training, no expertise. You don’t have the resources because I can’t hire a person to do that for me. So, I have to do everything myself. So, I have to be very careful on what I do because time and budgets are limited to what to do.

Something that is going to give me a fair return on my effort, not even the investment, but a fair return on my effort. So, it happens almost automatically that you think, what am I going to do and what is the expected outcome?

And how is that going to help me achieve the goals that I’ve set myself? So, for me, everything centres around being visible. And in your case, you talk about, yes, I know something about that. I can help you with that. I have experience in that.

Reports, yes, KPIs are in large corporations and a good corporation or a good company will have them visible on the board somewhere in the department.

These are our KPIs. These are our targets. And just making yourself available, that self-promotion by saying, yeah, okay, I’ve got the time. I’ve got the experience. Here I am. And it’s just a continuous little drop of a tap that is running. And that’s the challenge that I face. And it’s not easy. It is not easy because you’re wondering, am I going to be accepted? Is it going to work? How does it resonate? Have I done the right thing?

Eventually, you find the path and then you get some feedback and it’s either good feedback or negative feedback and you evaluate it and then you move on. So, anything that I do to make myself visible internally, externally, good or bad, is interesting.

I mean, there’s one European airline, I don’t think both of you will know about it. It’s called Ryanair. It’s an Irish airline. It’s the biggest airline in Europe. And the CEO was an absolute clown. And he would just say something, and it would generate publicity.

He would say, look, they are the ones who nickel and dimed the entire airline industry. If you go and fly somewhere, you pay for every single step of the journey and the process. That goes back to this guy from Ryanair. And he would say, I’m going to charge people the equivalent of one pound or one dollar to go to the toilet during the flight.

He never did, but it caused a huge discussion, free publicity. The airline is absolute rubbish. The service is not worth speaking about. But it is the most successful and most profitable carrier in Europe. Because this guy is visible.

So, that would be my global answer to this question, the visibility of what you do and what you say, be it good or bad.

Igor: Yeah. And you say the important point because most of people, especially young people, I would say, they think that those transformations like promotions, getting a new job, maybe accomplishing something big in your company or in your life. Young people, they tend to believe that it’s happened suddenly.

So, he got a promotion because of X, which happened yesterday. But those things, they take time because everyone as a marketer, something I learned is that everyone has a map of other people in their heads.

So, there is Frank, like the real Frank, and there’s my concept of Frank in my head. And when you do those small things, like you show results, you make yourself available, you make questions, like Ritesh said.

You are helping to form the image that people will have in their minds. You can influence that. You cannot influence 100%, but you can have a huge impact on how people will perceive you.

And those things over time will build up and people will have this image about you. And when the time comes, you can be the one who benefits from it.

So, yeah, that’s a very good point. Some things, they just take time. And there is a very important concept in marketing, which is timing. You can have a strategy. Strategy A can be perfect, but if you apply it in the wrong moment, it might not work. If you apply it in the right moment, it might be like a huge success. So, timing is very important. Things are not lost in time. The timing of which things happen influence the results of whatever you are doing. So, that’s a good point.

Another good example I always think of is using my profession, which is marketing, is everyone talks about data nowadays. Like if you talk to any marketers, people say, oh, that is important. You should track everything. You should monitor everything.

And this is true. You have to. But a lot of marketers, they ignore this part because it’s a little bit more logical. There are a lot of numbers. It’s a little bit complicated. Sometimes you have to learn the basics of coding and people just ignore that.

And in my experience, working with this for 10 years now, marketers who don’t understand analytics and data, a little bit of data science and business intelligence, they are so limited in what they can do.

In my case, I was, I won’t say lucky, but not lucky in this case. I had to learn by necessity. But in the very beginning of my journey, I learned those things.

And I can say with a lot of confidence that that’s the reason I got successful as a marketer is because I learned that very early, like how to track numbers, how to report them, how to fix issues.

Because although I’m a marketer and that’s, in quotes, not my job, it’s the kind of skills that helped me to do everything else. Helping me to make the right decision, helping me to sit in the table with the decision maker, if you think about that.

Because imagine you are a manager of a huge company and you have a very tight schedule. You cannot do a lot of things and you have to pick very wisely who you’re going to talk to. Imagine this scenario.

Would you talk with someone lower rank, who has a lot of good ideas and is cool, or would you talk to someone who has the numbers, like they know what’s going on, they have all the information, they can provide you the numbers, right?

So most of the times people will pick the person who has the numbers because ideas are everywhere. We don’t leave a shortage of ideas. Ideas are everywhere, especially now with AI. Forget about it. Ideas is commodity pretty much, right?

But having the numbers, it helps you to sit in the table with the decision maker. Right now it’s happened to me in my job. For instance, there are a lot of projects. My company, they do a lot of different projects.

And when they need to take a decision based on numbers, meaning what’s going on, they ask me, they bring me aboard because I am the one who has the knowledge to set up the tracking, understand what each KPI means, display it in a way that makes sense to everyone.

So I’m always including those conversations just because I have this skill. So it’s just example, of course, different professions will have different core skills. But in marketing, it’s a core skill.

Yeah, I don’t know with Ritesh. Do you work with documentation, right? Like technical documentation?

Ritesh: Yeah.

Igor: Yeah. Do you feel like if you had a skill X or Y, you would be invited to participate in conversations which happens in a higher rank where you are right now?

Ritesh: Yes. Yes. So what we do generally, we are helping end users and you just you can say different types of users of the platform.

And initially we used to give a word file, PDF file to them. And we thought that we were never tracking that who is using, what are the difference and what are the features they are using common frequently in the app and in our platform.

Then we decided to go with the embedded user manual, user guides, our documentation.

We can say that so that they can go and check. And we wanted to bring this.

We have not implemented. We are thinking about this. We wanted to bring something called Google Analytics, where we can see that which feature is used frequently in different roles.

And where they suppose you want to try to do something and you started the journey and within that journey you awarded your sequence.

So we can track those sequence and we can help our users writing better documentation or better guide so that they can perform their task.

And we wanted to implement something that they can provide a feedback to our document that this process or this guide didn’t help me to do accomplish some certain thing.

And that data will be published and we will try to improve our document or we will help our design team and development team or product team to design or create different or better solution for the end users.

So that this tool or this platform will be self explanatory that they don’t have to go into document and read things to do that features.

So I think that knowledge of this analytics, if I had or if I wanted to implement those things because it was never given to me.

If I had that knowledge, it might have helped me to be part of the designing and product at higher level.

Igor: For sure, man. Yeah, I use Google Analytics a lot, by the way. And something I’m thinking here, like, okay, imagine I am a manager at your company, right? And I want to know how many people actually read the documentation we send, not how many people receive the documentation, how many people read the documentation.

Who should I ask this information to?

Ritesh: Yeah, it should be asked to us and you should have the numbers. But we don’t have numbers and we have requested them. It was from our team documentation to be called technical communication team. So we wanted to help them and we wanted to bring a features that can track that numbers. Suppose we are writing blindly and we don’t know.

We are just we have contract in that contract says that if you are publishing, creating this platform, there should be a document documentation.

But how many people they are using? We don’t know. We are fulfilling the contract, but we don’t know the actual use of our effort. So we tried to convince our PM product managers, project managers to bring certain features that we can track.

And but it always goes to the back end because they have to fulfil some commitments and go through the backlogs and everything.

Igor: Yeah, it reminds me of something I did when I had my company because I had a marketing agency and we our sales pitch was where we help you to increase your sales. That was our sales pitch. But of course, like the clients would hire us with the expectation we would by ourselves, increase the sales, which is very hard.

Almost impossible in most of the cases because it depends on the sales team, depends on the product, etc. And we learned that we needed to put in the contract that the client was aware of that. So like the client would sign I know where like sales depends on me as well, not only Igor’s company, something like that.

Right. And when we had a contract like like one year contract, something like that. And we had a couple of problems in which the client would say, oh, I want to cancel the service because my sale is not increasing. And then we would talk, OK, it’s really not increasing.

We think that if you should if you help us with X, Y and Z, we think we have a better chance of driving sales. But the clients would say, oh, but I wasn’t aware. I wasn’t aware of that. Like, I always thought you would drive sales regardless of what I’m doing here.

And clients would say, oh, why would I have to do something if I’m hiring you? Right. And then what we did, like we did, we put the contract on DocSign, which is a platform.

And we implemented like the Google Analytics tracking event in which like we would measure if people read this specific part of the contract. And then like it was maybe four years ago, I did that. And like in the following year, every time some client would say that, we would say, OK, but we know you read it.

We pretty much would say that. So that’s kind of what you mean, right? Like you want to make sure people read the documentation, you know people are reading the documentation.

But yeah, that’s a good moment to be in your position, right? Because you have the like the field knowledge because you write the documentation. But now you are in this position, you can help the company not only track, but also improve. Because if you don’t know, like if you don’t have a KPI, let’s say percentage of people who are reading the documentation. You don’t know if you are improving or not, right?

Ritesh: Yeah. And right now for my KPI, how they track. Suppose I have written some document, it goes for the review. The reviewer gives a comment and my KPI depends on that. If I have missed some features, I have missed the functionality. But it should not be my KPI because the document writing process have three phases like we do follow the phases. Like suppose I have written some draft, it goes to the review, peer review, self-review, peer review.

Then it goes to the lead review or you can call it that peer review or something like that. But now they are considering my KPI based on the how many features I missed, not based on the my document is helping some users, end users or not. Suppose I’m getting feedback from the users that this process has not helped them to accomplish their work.

This would be my KPI, but it is not tracked like this here.

Igor: Yeah. And that that cost.

 But it depends on the organizations, how they’re tracking and based on the what kind of applications they are using.  And this kind of applications, what I am working is you are forcing someone to do certain things. It’s not self-learning or something like that.

They have to follow some contract or they have to do something to do their jobs, to be what you call compliance compliant so that they can perform some duties.

So they are taking the courses and they have to use the platform for a certain period of time in the year.

Igor: Yeah, I was just thinking here that I remember when I joined this company where I work right now, I was talking to another marketer who used to take care of another project. And I would ask him, OK, but what KPIs are you working towards?

What are you trying to improve? And he said something like, oh, we don’t have. And I said, oh, we should create before someone create them for us, because like if there is no KPI, someone eventually will create it. And most of the times this KPI won’t make sense if it’s not created by the people who are working on this field. Right. So, yeah, that’s probably what happened in your company. Someone created this KPI because they needed a KPI, but no one had the time or productivity to create them for.

But I want to hear from you, Frank. So first, how do you track with success?

Frank: Here’s a question. Let’s go back three steps.

And go right back to the basics and ask myself, what is the success of Brida? So I am actually still at laying the foundations, because the learning curve is very steep. And of course, I have several hats on in my role here, so I can only dedicate so much time.

That said, and I told you this on WhatsApp separately, I have created an AI management team. And it’s not just a social media marketing manager.

And I’ve started actually branching this out into regional marketing managers that will be trained to focus on regional peculiarities or habits or something. Because the one thing that I did learn painfully, expensively and for a long, long time was that I was sending out a global message that didn’t resonate with anybody. Because they couldn’t relate to it.

But how do I track this? A couple of months ago, I ran an ad in Mexico targeting independent language teachers. Now, what I do is sort of a mixture of language facilitating is actually something quite different.

And I combined, and I took the metrics that Facebook gave me, and I ran them past a trained AI. And he said, do this, do this, or gave me something to think about.

So actually doing what an AI does isn’t something I say is a good idea, but at least you get into a thinking process. And then I tweaked this and that, and I could see notable differences.

I could actually see the number of clicks rise, I could see the number of views increase, the metrics became quite dynamic. So I have to go this unusual path again, because resources are limited. And I am actually sort of combining a couple of courses that I will have to do on Google Analytics, etc.

Combining this with something that I will learn out of working with AI, and then I still believe in gut instinct. Because the numbers may be correct, or they may tell you a story, but it is still a human that has to make a decision based on the data.

Of course, the data is easier to make the decision, but there’s still an element of risk in there. It may go right, it may go wrong, because as you said earlier, the timing is crucial.

So ask me this question in 12 months time, and I might be able to give you a definitive answer.

But I’m using several tools that are relatively inexpensive. But at the end of the day, because I’m dealing with people, and this is a very people-centric platform, I measure the success in the degree of engagement, in the degree of soft facts, which are not necessarily measurable through any statistics. And also the degree of habits. A lot of the people will only join the platform for a specific time, because that’s when they have a meeting with me.

And you two are perfect cases in point. You only come to Brida when we meet. And for the remaining 167 hours, your lives are full of other things.

And what is success? Success is also measuring the competition. But in actual fact, the other trainers, the other instant language schools and whoever does this kind of thing on the planet are not my competition.

It’s your lives that are my greatest competition. What you do, what you don’t do. Everything becomes compartmentalized. So I’m sort of balancing between metrics as far as I understand them, but also I have to balance the habits of the people that use this platform.

And then within this, I worked out the average age of the platform is 39. You are amongst the youngest. I’ve got some Isma and I, if you include me, Ismar and I are the oldest. Everyone’s sort of running around in between.

So 39. Then Igor, you’re based in LA. Ritesh, you’re based in India. Some people are based in Europe and so on. So there’s a whole host of things which are human centric, which cannot be measured.

Can I be successful? Yes, because I have over 40 years of dealing with humans. I have knowledge through the hotel career I had before I did this and the 30 years of training a whole range of different people. And that gives you a sensitivity which no numbers will relate to because they can’t produce it.

Do I measure you by the number of responses or the number of words or the times you smile or laugh or go away? I can’t do that. It’s not possible. So numbers in my field are good if I’m advertising for something. But the success of the platform is also customer retention. The platform as it is now over three years old.

I have had people who have been there for three years. I’ve had customers who have been coming to meet for eight or nine years. I’ve had contracts with a large corporation that ran for 17 years non-stop.

And you can’t equate that with numbers. It’s simply the visibility, the networking, the discussions, the beers in the pub in the UK, the cups of espresso in a cafe somewhere, at a railway station when you bump into somebody, the meeting at the company gates when you sign in to walk to meet somebody and another person is there, you exchange words.

A lot of these soft facts also come into it and you can’t measure that. But it is very, very important to my success.

And that I’ve been doing this for 30 years, that’s sort of my success measure. It’s customer retention, contacts, networking, that’s what it is.

A little bit different to somewhere in between your marketing agency where, yes, you are the interface between the customer and the data that you produce so that the customer can do something. But your customer will then do something that generates his sales so that people buy their products or do their service or something.

And that becomes very murky, in my opinion at least. Very cloudy and murky because you can’t really measure it.

But then I’m also a different generation.

Igor: Yeah, that makes sense. You are correct. Not only in your field, but numbers, usually they are used to inform. They should be used to inform the decision, not to make the decision for you, right?

There’s this concept, I have a friend in Brazil, he has a high school which teaches analytics. And he always says he’s not data driven, he’s like data informed.

Because the data doesn’t drive his decisions, but informs him to make the decisions. So that’s a good way to put it.

Frank: Yeah, that would be an… yeah, you’re right on that one.

Igor: Yeah, so to wrap up this series, I would like to hear from both of you, what did you learn from it?

What’s the lesson you feel you can take forward to your life and apply hopefully?

Maybe I will start to kick start the conversation, but I guess my main lesson by talking about project management with both of you is that in the end of the day, communication is the glue that put everything together.

It doesn’t matter what we do. Having an efficient and good communication, which means a lot of things and we don’t have to discuss this right now, is the glue that put everything together.

If you have a lot of competent people, infinite resources, if you are in the perfect place in the world, in the perfect time, but you don’t have the communication to put everything together, nothing will happen probably.

So that’s my main lesson. And I want to hear from both of you. So Ritesh, what do you say? What’s the main lesson you took from those conversations?

Ritesh: So I will start with the first thing, it came in my mind when the series started that when you talked about three things, cost, quality and the third thing was time, cost, quality and time.

So you have to balance yourself in this aspect, not in anything. I just took this one and I started thinking that in anything in life, we have to balance all these things and be it a project, be it a personal life.

You have to analyze these things and you have to communicate yourself within these three ideas. When you want to keep down, you want to compromise with quality and to meet your timeline with a given cost.

If you want to meet the quality, then you have to increase your cost or timeline.

So I think this is the most valuable thing I have learned in this one and you have something you have told us and I related this one to what I do. And I think most of the things, what I do and what I observed in my organization that gave me a lot of confidence. Now to talk about all those things, especially the project management, how they deal with the situation.

People you talked about delegating your work also like you have to delegate things because you can’t do everything.

So you have to make authority to some people to do things. So these are the things that I have learned this one in this series.

I remember this much only, but I think last call we discussed about this, to deal with the certain barriers you have. That was very, very inspirational. You have to adjust yourself. You don’t create excuse. You have to make yourself certain a way that you can avoid those barriers for yourself.

Igor: Yeah. When you can’t change yourself, you should create mechanisms.

Ritesh: Mechanisms. Yes.

Igor: Frank, your turn.

Frank: I learned a hell of a lot, but not what you will expect. OK. Yes, we could talk about visibility, the skills, the scopes, the quality, the time and all these technical things. I’m going to go back to the fundamental difference. And that is the age difference between the two of you and me, which is around 40 years.

And one of my favorite films ever made is the film The Intern with Robert De Niro and Anne Hathaway, which really portrays how a very successful startup can learn from a senior manager and vice versa. Yeah. And I think the beauty of this series was that maybe I could share with you one or two stories, which are completely outlandish and out of the world for your generation, but still very valid for our generation.

But on the other side, that we have the ability to learn from you that, yes, the world has changed.

Business has changed fundamentally. There is much more data and information available for us to use. And we have to learn to trust it and be then to use it.

Yeah. And that at the end of the day, whether it was our generation or your generation, we still want to be successful in what we do. We want to be able to be proud of what it is we do. We want to be able to share it with our friends and communicate this and identify ourselves to a certain degree with maybe not the company or the product, but the task that we are at hand.

I mean, how many times Igor have in our conversations over the last one and a half years, have you said, I’m a marketer, I’m a marketer. There’s always been a element of humor or pride in it.

Yeah. And in your journey, which has been long and very different, you have always said, well, you know, I’m a marketer because I see things this way, this way or differently.

And I think that is the one thing that I’ve learned that no matter how old we are, we all want the same thing. We just do it differently. And we can learn from different nations, different perspectives, different age brackets. And that is probably the biggest thing.

And that is something that will move on into the future, because at some point you will reach my age and you will have then kids coming up asking you these weird and wonderful questions, which would be totally different to what the ones you are going to be asking.

And then maybe you can relate and say, well, yeah, well, when I was younger, we did it like this. Yeah. And God knows what we will be doing in 40 years time when it comes to marketing or selling or building or anything like that. Yeah. Totally different ballgame.

So that’s the one thing that I learned, that we can still have a voice, even if we’re oldies, we can still have a voice and we can learn from each other.

Igor: Yes. Well, for sure. For sure. Yeah. People underestimate how and what they can learn from older people.

Frank: And that’s crazy because there is so much thing we can learn from different aspects. And even if you don’t agree, that’s OK if you don’t agree. But just hearing the perspectives should be adding a lot of value for your life.

Yeah. Learning never stops. I had a conversation earlier with somebody who was complaining to me about the result of some of the work or some of the people that she has to work with.

And it’s much more difficult because they stopped learning and then they start complaining and become unproductive. They become ineffective and then they have problems because they simply stopped learning. And that’s so, so important is that learning never stops from the day you’re born to your last breath.

Igor: That’s right. Well, thank you for being part of that. I appreciate your time. Listen to me. I hope it helps you to achieve whatever you want to achieve. If you don’t want to achieve anything, that’s fine as well. I hope it was fun and interacting. And yeah, thank you. And final thoughts. I’m done. In a good sense. In a good sense.

Ritesh: I think we just you want to have the. Yes. Yeah. So you see, I have heard about this project management because I’m not part. I’m part of the project, but I’m not the person who has authority. And you look at the person for and you think about that job career and what they do, because you are working under them and you think about to do something.

What do you what attracts you and listening this podcast or your knowledge, because you are handling these projects and giving your own accounts how it works and what is the most most important things and sharing the knowledge.

It was very, very helpful and where I can relate what people say in the organization, what they do, how they make decisions and I can relate and I think about that things.

And it is it really gives a confidence, confidence that that what they are doing. I know that what is what why they are doing these things. And this was really, really helpful.

And thank you for taking time explaining this knowledge and sharing with me. And thank you for Frank also to bring this thing to me and bringing and helping me to get this knowledge.

Frank: Igor, I just have to thank you for being so bloody provocative. Because like I said before, sometimes you sort of come out and think, did I really answer the question or did I actually understand what it is he’s talking about? So I love the provocation. So thank you for that and for the challenge, for really taking us a little bit out of our comfort zone,

making us think and saying, OK, maybe I should have said something differently, but to hell, I was visible. So there it is. Yeah, you got it.

Igor: Yeah. OK, so. So, yes. But thank you for for instigating this, Ritesh. Thank you for participating in this and sharing your thoughts and experiences. Very, very valuable all around. And I hope that we can in some shape, size, form or constellation do this in a different way again in the future.

Frank: Yeah, that would be really, really good. Now, Ego, you have the final word.

Igor: Yeah, I mentioned that like the communication is the glue that will eventually put everything together. And yeah, I just, well, I don’t want to sound repetitive, but I just want to say thank you for creating this environment in which we can communicate while we improve ourselves, our English.

But also we create like this sense of we are talking to real people and sharing your experience. Like it shouldn’t be the case, but it’s become it’s become scarce, this kind of opportunity, because everyone is just crazy with their own lives and like having those spaces.

Yeah, I think you have a lot of market potential, Frank. It’s becoming rare. They are becoming rare for sure.

Frank: It’s very, very difficult to sell because it is actually something really natural, but it’s it’s so natural that people don’t actually see it anymore.

Igor: Yes.