On this Tuesday Get Together, our diverse trio, Igor, Ismar, and Frank, delve into a fascinating conversation centred around the thought-provoking WOW words proposed by Julia and Cléa. Julia sparked an intriguing dialogue surrounding the concept of Memories, while Cléa was eager to explore the complex nature of Fame.
The participants didn’t take long to merge these two seemingly distinct subjects into a fascinating topic. Each person shared his unique insights, and experiences, and had to navigate some pretty probing questions. This programme was recorded March 21, 2023
Transcript
Frank So, gentlemen, welcome to the Tuesday get together. It’s the Brazilian version only because Sebastián is probably relaxing somewhere on the Canary Islands. I haven’t heard from him, and I don’t expect to. So we have two subjects which you can choose from. The first subject is either memories. That was a subject that was chosen and created by Julia. And the other subject that we can talk about is fame. And that was a subject generated by Cléa. And there is a third one. It’s about the future. But we actually had this kind of discussion a few weeks ago or months ago, which was generated by Maxime. So, the choice is yours, gentlemen. Igor, what have you chosen to talk about? What would you like to question Ismar and myself about either fame or memories?
Igor Well, I have to choose one and go with that or it’s random. I can alternate between the two talks.
Frank Well, we can do that as well. That can make it really interesting. Ismar, do you agree with that?
Ismar No problem. No problem.
Frnak No problem. We have to think on our feet.
Ismar I think I was born as a debate man.
Frank Here comes the Toastmaster contingency here.
Igor OK, I will start with an easy one.
Frank OK, go ahead, Igor. What is your first question?
Igor What’s memory in your perspective?
Frank Who is this question for, Ismar or me?
Igor I think Ismar can begin.
Ismar Memory by itself, it can be good or bad. It depends on because we have bad and good memory. And if possible, I would like to forget all my bad memories and only maintain my good memories. But it’s not possible. And the memory. Can you repeat your question, please?
Igor Of course. My question is, what is memory?
Ismar Memory is something that happened in your life and is impressed in your mind, your spirit, and you can’t get rid of them.
Igor Frank, what’s memory?
Frank I know you well enough to suspect from my memory of speaking with you, Igor, that the question is a loaded question.
Igor No, it’s not. Maybe. Depends.
Frank Yeah, see, my memory serves me right, yes, of the many discussions that we have had. But on the superficial level of it, memory is a collection of thoughts linked to past experiences. Be they good or be they bad. And the experiences or something that happens in one’s life can trigger a memory or to remember something that happened in the past. So it is basically a collection of experiences which are stored in our brains. So all things are circular. So, Igor, what is memory for you?
Igor Well, I didn’t ask with the expectation to answer, but once you asked. OK, so I think memory is something we create in your brain, which is made of our past experience and our perspective of the world in general. So, I don’t think the memory we have as human beings, the same memory as a computer has, for example. I think every time, and I have read about that, of course, that every time we have some memory, actually we are constructing this memory every time. So, it’s never a proven impression of what happened. It’s something we created.
So that’s my short answer. And the follow up question is, because I’m really interested in knowing, like it’s not a redundant question, I’m really interested in knowing. So like in though like in because you guys are more experienced than me, that’s why I’m asking.
So like if you’re thinking about your life, if you could choose to keep memories forever, so until the last day, your last day on Earth, like what would be those memories? Of course, it don’t need to be very personal, can be some kind of category if you want. But as experienced people more than me, of course, like what kind of memories would you like to keep until the last day on Earth?
Frank Igor, sorry, you’re slightly sorry, Ismar, you’re a little bit younger than I am. I need more, I need more time to think.
Ismar If I would, I wouldn’t like it to maintain the memories that I, because when we remember something, at least it happened to me, when it was a bad memory, I had the same feeling or almost the same feelings when I had for the first time. And if possible, I would like to forget this kind of memory. For example, when I fought against someone, when I have a bad experience, it doesn’t matter if in family or in my job, and this kind of memories, I would like to forget it forever.
Igor And which one would you like to keep forever?
Ismar For example, the first time I saw the ocean, I was 18. I suppose it was one that I would like to maintain. The first time I went to Europe, I would like to maintain all the memories I had. And for example, some more other good memories, for example, some girls that I had on my life for the first time I went to the cinema, it wasn’t a good experience because I got very afraid of the images because I have no idea what it was because on that time, I didn’t have TV at home. And it wasn’t so good, but I think it was interesting then I would like to maintain. I was 8 years old and a nice and beautiful female neighbour got us to the movie. It was interesting. Her name was Lucia. I suppose she was 14 and I was eight. I think it is a marvellous experience. And I don’t remember exactly when I perceived that, but when I realized that to know how to read and how to write is so important all of my life. I wouldn’t like to forget this experience since I began at school. I suppose it was amazing. I was 18 as well. Many others.
Frank We won’t ask. It’s a very good question, Igor. And I’m going to answer it from a slightly different perspective. I have been self-employed for pretty much for 30 years. And in these 30 years, you go through enormous peaks, successes, and then you can also go through some very, very dark periods of time. And I think the memories and the beauty of your question is, is that you didn’t actually quantify the amount of memories we could keep forever. So, I would probably keep all the memories irrespective of whether they are good or bad, that helped me make the right decisions so that I could always refer back to them and say, in this situation or in that situation, I did this, or this helped me, or this was good, or something like that. And of course, you can then extend that into private scenarios, so positive relationships with people, negative relationships with people. So, I would actually keep all my memories because I don’t actually regret anything that I have done. So, since you didn’t put a quantity to it, I’m going to take everything and say for the 61 plus years that I have lived, I regret nothing. It’s been pretty bad at times. It’s been fantastic at times. So, all my memories serve me to help me for however long I have left on this planet.
Igor Good answer.
Frank I have to say that too. That was a really good answer.
Igor Yes. Maybe I’ll write about that tomorrow in my diary because I’m writing every day. Okay. So how old are you, Frank?
Frank A couple of weeks short of 62.
Ismar Oh, and you, Ismar? I am 61 and I would turn zero to 62.
Igor Interesting. Just for curiosity. I don’t have any comments on that.
Frank We can’t help it.
Igor Okay. I am half your age. That’s a good comment.
Frank Exactly. Ismar let’s throw the ball across to you. What questions would you like? This topic is either fame or memories, but I think we’ve sort of come to the memories corner of the discussion. So, Ismar, do you have a question first for Igor and then for Moi?
Ismar It’s still about memory.
Frank If you want, or we can talk about fame and maybe we can link the two.
Ismar I have one for you too about memory. In which occasion and why do you get disappointed with your memory?
Igor So who will start?
Frank The youngest will always start. Igor, we have a long time to think about this. We have to dig deep in our memories and our experience. We’ve got 30 years plus on you.
Igor Well, I really get frustrated with my memory when I am talking to someone or I’m writing something. Usually, I am doing some intellectual work and afterwards, in the next day, maybe one week later, I remember of something, some code, some book, some video, anything I remember that could have been very useful at that time. But the opportunities passed away. I get really frustrated about that. And I really envy people who can remember reference codes, books during the conversation. That’s when I get frustrated.
Frank Can you repeat the question Ismar?
Ismar In which kind of occasion do you feel frustrated, disappointed with your memory and why?
Frank So I suppose I could feel frustrated now because I just forgot the question. Who wrote these questions?
I don’t know if I get frustrated by a lack of memory. I think I, and maybe Ismar, you can help me on this one. I’m not going to get frustrated by the lack of memory of things that happened in the past. But because my mother lives with us here in our house, I’m of course in very close contact with her. And I notice that her memory is beginning to recede. She can remember certain things. She forgets other things. There are times when I get the same story repeated each evening and I don’t say anything. So I think the frustration lies in the future that we know that in the future we will have memory loss problems. And unless we write everything down or make notes or record everything, it might actually be difficult to remember the good moments that we experienced or the bad moments that we experienced.
But the beauty of this frustration is that I can try to prolong the process of having a good memory, speaking three languages, thinking a lot, using my brain a lot. So. I wouldn’t get frustrated from something that happened in the past, but I would certainly get frustrated if I see that in my own personal future, I might suffer the same problems that my father had. My father suffered from memory loss before he died. My mother is going the same way. So I can expect that the same will happen to me in 20, 25 year’s time, which is still a long way, but you don’t know.
You have a follow-up question, Ismar, or maybe you want to talk about your perspective on this.
Ismar I get frustrated with my memory in some cases as Igor when I want to remember something, some author, some actor’s name, a writer’s name. And even when I have some impression, I write my impressions on a book or on a notebook, but sometimes I don’t have a specific place, a notebook to write, and I mix with someone else’s ideas. Then after some time, I don’t recognize which one is mine and which one is not. And from sometime, I adopt a mark. I put the date of the day and I put between brackets. Then I know that belongs to me, but if I don’t do that, even it is a good idea. Sometimes when I didn’t do that, I didn’t recognize that it was my writing, and I got a little frustrated. Oh, I thought something like this. It was a good idea, good impression. And I don’t remember that I did it because I think in some aspect, our memory doesn’t belong to us. The ideas come from someplace that I don’t know where is this place, and they appear on our minds. And then those ideas aren’t a matter of mine. I don’t know who put those ideas on my mind. And if I don’t write, I can forget them.
But Frank said something that I have thought before answering that. I regret the memory that I want to have in the future. I have thought the same as Frank because I have talked this week, I suppose, that when you can’t live by yourself, for example, you can’t move, you can’t move your food, your home. And if you lose your memory, I think it’s not worthwhile to continue living. I think memory is the most important thing in our life.
If not the life, does it make sense?
Frank Well, I think it is also that we remember to do certain things. We remember that we have to do certain things to survive, like to remember to get out of bed in the morning, to remember to eat, to remember to wash ourselves, the basic functions. And if we forget to do that, then the quality of our lives becomes worthless.
Ismar And this object is a part of my memory. It’s a diary.
Frank I have the same thing. But then you’ve got to flick through the diary to remember what you did. And then of course, if you forget what it was, then that becomes critical.
Ismar But sometimes I forget to look at my diary. Then I lost some appointment.
Frank Yeah. Then you have to put a post-it note somewhere, check your diary here. Are you learning from us Igor? Two old men here speaking to a young person like you. We’re giving you tips for your future. When we are long gone, you can reflect on this conversation. Maybe it’ll be somewhere and you can reflect on this conversation. Oh, I remember on the 22nd of March, 2023, there was this conversation with these two strange elderly gentlemen. What did we talk about here? Okay.
Igor, question back to you. What question would you like to ask on the subject of memories or the subject of fame?
Igor Okay, so I’ve changed the subject. SoN would you like to be famous? Why? Just file your answer. I think Ismar can start with this one.
Ismar If I could choose between fame and money, I would choose money. But for example, in some cases, when you are famous, you can make money easier. And probably if I had to choose between having money and to be obligatory famous, maybe I think it wouldn’t be good in my opinion because I think I’m free to go wherever I want to go. And if I were famous probably, I wouldn’t be free to do that. And at the same time, if you have much money, it doesn’t matter if you are famous or not, because even people don’t know you, probably if you are very rich, they know your name. They know who you are, but they know your name. And when you publish your name in some place, people will relate the money you have with the name, and they will recognize you. I think it’s not good. But in a general idea, I would like to have much money, but I wouldn’t like to be famous. But if my name was famous and they won’t recognize me and my famous name would make money for me, I think it would be a good idea.
It’s like a puzzle that you have to put many places.
Frank Yeah, it’s a puzzle. Okay. I think if you are famous, it requires certain prerequisites and your question, Igor, lets me open the interpretation a little bit.
You can be famous publicly, but you can also be famous privately. And the short answer to the question, do I want to be famous publicly? No. For the simple reason that I would not be able to live my own life. I would be under public scrutiny. I would have to say something, and people would then try to interpret what I said in this way and this way. And I would be misquoted. I would be, you know, I would be a public figure and they would not know who the real me is.
Can you be famous privately in the circle of your friends and your family? Yes, you can. But then that is reputation. Yeah. So, and I don’t know if being famous is then the right word. You can be notorious. You can be, you have a reputation for being this way or that way. And then you can say, Oh, Frank, he is famous for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Yeah. And then we will know, and then it will be accepted as one of the characteristics of this person called Frank.
Yeah. So, um, and there’s nothing you can do about that because it’s the way you are, your DNA is constructed. It’s the way you think you act. It’s based on your memories, on your experience, and you just do this.
And the beauty of fame is that the older you get, of fame in the, in the, in the private sense, the older you get, um, the less you care about what happens. And then you become eccentric and you, you start doing things because you really couldn’t give a damn about what other people think, how they’re going to react. And then you just go and have a great time because you’ve got nothing to prove. You’ve got nothing to, to be afraid of, because basically at some point they just say, Oh yeah, that’s Frank. Don’t worry about him. He’s just, yeah. Um, and that’s a beautiful sense of freedom. Yeah. You can actually just go and let rip and nobody cares. Yeah. Whereas if you go and let crip, let rip as a celebrity, as a person, a public figure, then all kinds of stuff happens. And, um, I don’t think that’s really a good idea. Good question. And, uh, follow up. And for you and Igor for you, the same question.
Igor Uh, yes, I would like to be famous. So, I don’t, I don’t see many disadvantages. Of course, I, I don’t, I won’t, I wouldn’t do anything to be famous. Uh, I wouldn’t do things that costs me very much in terms of emotional, uh, stuff or social stuff. But I, like, if I could be famous tomorrow, it would be a good thing because I would just have more leverage on things I want to do.
Uh, so yeah, I, I would like to be, but I wouldn’t do anything to be famous.
Now, my, my follow up question is in your lifetime, who, who is the most famous person you, in your opinion, you know, in your lifetime. So, it’s, it can’t be someone who lived in the past in your lifetime to your experience, who is the most famous person who lived in your opinion, because of course there’s no, there’s no data for that. So, in your opinion, who’s the most famous? Ismar, do you want to start?
Ismar Okay. Uh, some people we heard about them, but, uh, we aren’t sure if they existed or not, because it was a long time ago. I suppose the first one is Jesus Christ.
Igor And I’m sorry to, to interrupt, but can’t be someone who lived in the past, like someone who lived in your lifetime. So, so that you’re my lifetime.
Frank So the most famous, the most famous, either living person or person who lived from when you were born until today?
Ismar Probably, uh, I’m not sure. I guess Michael Jackson.
Igor Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Frank Can you enlighten us on that one? Why Michael Jackson, Ismar?
Ismar No, because, uh, if I understood Igor’s question, uh, who is the most famous person in my lifetime? Yeah. Everyone from my, from my age or something around, they had, they have heard of Michael Jackson.
Frank What criteria are we going to use? A famous movie star, a famous politician, a famous, um, religious person, um, a famous, um, whatever.
Igor Yeah. I, I, I didn’t think about those criterias. I think like in general sense, like if you tell a name anywhere in the world for any kind of person of any generation, would do, which one would be the name most likely to be remembered by everyone you ask it? And, uh, I don’t know as well, just to make my point, I have no idea, but I think Michael Jackson would be in the top three. Maybe I have other two hypothesis, but I would like to know your thoughts, Frank.
Frank Um, I remember we talked about this yesterday igOR. So I come back to, uh, to Neil Armstrong, who, uh, he, I was eight years old when he hopped around on the moon and the reason that I would probably choose Neil Armstrong is, uh, other following, first of all, he did this, this incredible feat of taking a piece of metal, 300,000 kilometres to the moon, putting it on the moon, climbing out of this piece of metal, running around on the moon for a couple of hours, and then taking this piece of metal back to earth and going through the shield that protects us and, um, landing in the water. Um, so, so that, that in itself is, is, uh, a huge feat of courage, mental strength. But, uh, what I find remarkable about, um, Neil Armstrong is also that he disappeared from public life. It was such an amazing experience for him that the only way he could process this is actually by not talking about it. And, uh, it was only 40 years later that he actually started giving interviews and talking about this experience. Of course, he was, he was very enthusiastic when he landed and he, you know, they did the ticker parade on fifth avenue in New York, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But he almost assumed a sense of normality afterwards. Yeah. He was probably still an engineer at NASA. He probably received a lot of money, but he sort of just disappeared yet. His name sticks. Yeah. Um, and it sticks positively. Yeah. Michael Jackson has at least here in Europe, he has a pretty bad reputation. Um, his music might be fantastic, but his reputation is, is, is pretty, pretty bad. Um, so I would probably say Neil Armstrong, uh, because he, he was famous, but he managed to contain all the hype and all the razzmatazz that goes with it. He, he, he was famous, but he remained a humble person. Uh, I think that’s the best way I would, I would phrase that. Yeah.
Igor Well, that, that, that, that’s a good point because I watch a YouTube channel called is master everyday. And these YouTube channel is a guy, American guy. I think he’s from Kansas or something like that. And he’s an engineer and he, he go, he travels around the United States, talking to brilliant scientists, engineer and engineers. And, uh, I remember watching a video maybe two years ago that he visited. He visited somewhere in the United States where he met and he talked to the true astronaut, not astronaut, an engineer who worked in the Apollo program, which is the one who sent people to them, the moon. And this guy, like maybe 70 something years old was so smart and so brilliant. And he worked in the Apollo program, and he was completely unknown. And this guy was working like in, uh, like from eight to five, having his life, driving home, you know, but it’s like someone with such an amazing fit. And when you talk about Neil Armstrong, I think about that because like, if it was today, probably he would be a huge influencer. He would sell the T-shirts, online courses. Like first of all, he was an engineer. I think it is so fascinating. And I wonder how many like brilliant people exist and we have no idea about them.
Frank Exactly. Exactly. Um, uh, these, these hidden, these hidden, um, famous people that, um, that we, um, we forget about, and they just sort of disappear into the, um, into the, uh, into the universe. Um, okay. what question do you have?
Igor Okay. So you, you told that watching the, the man instead on the moon was remarkable. And my, my questions, where were you at the time, Australia?
Frank I was in, in Adelaide in South Australia. Yeah.
Igor And at that time, did we have conspiracy theories about thinking people, people thinking that it was fake or something like that, or it was a little bit later down in history?
Frank Wow. I think the term conspiracy theory is probably a very modern, a new, a new term, a modern term. I think that people might have doubted, of course, the landing on the moon. There might’ve been people who doubted the, the actual landing at the time when they watched it on television, they said, no, it can’t be, we can’t do this sort of thing.
Uh, whether it was a conspiracy theory and if conspiracy theories existed in those days, um, I personally would find it hard to believe. Um, it might have been, yeah, it might’ve been people who said, I don’t believe what you’re saying, but that’s because based on my, my experience, but actually what is a conspiracy theory? It’s people who look, who actively look for, for something that, um, makes, uh, that doesn’t make sense. Doesn’t fit the logic of a situation. Um, so we, I think the two greatest conspiracy theories, three greatest conspiracy theories are the assassination of JFK in 1964, uh, the landing of the moon and the bombing of the World Trade Center in 2001. I think those are the proper, the biggest conspiracies in the planet. Um, and of those three, the one that probably gains a lot of traction is, is the bombing of the World Trade Center, because you can take video footage and you can manipulate it. You can do what you want with it. Uh, whereas the conspiracy, whereas the, um, whereas the, the landing of the moon, uh, and the, the JFK assassination. Um, yeah, But, but I think what also, maybe it’s not so much the, the, the conspiracy theory as the suppression of evidence, the suppression of information by government authorities, which nurture this kind of conspiracy or the, or this doubt. Yeah. Um, and I think, I think it was Joe Biden who a couple of months ago released the, the, most of the documents surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy. And I think the bottom line was that, uh, there are all the conspiracy theories that circulated around this, um, remained unfounded. So it was, it was one person who did it. And, um, um, and, um, that’s what happened. Yeah. And I, I’m sure that in due course, all the documents surrounding the World Trade Center bombings will be made public. I don’t think I will see this. Um, and, um, so short answer to your question. No, I don’t think so about conspiracy. I don’t think they really existed that doubt human nature thinking yes or no. Um, perhaps, but, um, to call it a conspiracy theory, I think would be slightly exaggerated.
Igor Yeah. Okay. So, something will be interesting for me at least is to know how was the, the feeling at the time, because I have someone who was in Australia, Adelaide, and I have someone who was in Brazil, probably we are talking more about when the man landed on the moon in 1969. And Frank, he was telling me that he watched it on TV and he w it was very exciting. He went out to the, to the back garden, to, to explode the rockets into the sky and things like that. How was your experience in Brazil? Like, was it a big event? Everyone stopped to watch. How was it? Can you remember, or you don’t even remember?
Ismar I was eight, in 69, but on that time, we didn’t have a TV at home. Only my grandfather had, but see, I have seen some, uh, scenes from that. And, uh, but I was so young, but it was something very enthusiastic. I think it’s very different.
Igor Cool. Yeah. So, so, so can you remember if it was like a big event, you know, like the, you know, like the, for example, like the, in Brazil, the finals of the world cup, like, you know, that everyone will be watching while something like that, or you can’t remember.
Ismar I wouldn’t say that we can compare, but many people who had the TV, they stopped to watch on TV.
Igor Okay. Yeah. Interesting.
Ismar And, and the people talked a lot about it.
Frank I think from, from my perspective, so, so, um, I remember this day quite clearly actually, um, in that the landing, the landing was, uh, around 11 o’clock in the morning, local time. And the event was so momentous that basically the country stopped functioning for that day. We did not have to go to school. We were given, uh, and it was in, in, uh, it was in the middle of winter in Australia. So, uh, there was no summer holidays or anything. It was, you know, it was in the middle of winter.
Ismar July, I suppose. No, July, July.
Frank Well, yeah, it was. And so normally you would go to school. You had holidays in May and you had holidays in September, but July, nothing. Uh, so we, we didn’t have to go to school and it wasn’t just, I mean, television was a bonus. We didn’t have a TV, but my, my parents had friends who, who had a TV. And so, we, we piled around to their house. And my father had his own company car, which was, um, which was in the garage to be serviced. And they had a hire car, which was this 1940, which was this 1948 GM. So, so the general, the General Motors brand was, uh, was called Holden in Australia. And he had this 1948 FJ Holden, which looked like something out of, uh, what you would probably still see driving around in Havana today, these really old ancient cars. And, um, and, um, so 48 to 69, that’s it, it already had a couple of kilometers or miles on, on the clock. And we sort of chunked around from our house, maybe the four kilometers to, to our friend’s house. And we, um, we sat in the, in the family room of, of, of our friends and all around this black and white TV. It wasn’t colour. It was black and white, uh, with a very, very fuzzy image.
Yeah. Um, and if you didn’t have a TV, of course you had radio and you could listen to this on the radio as well. So I think if I remember rightly for us in Australia, because it was also the right time of the day for us, um, it, it was, it was, yeah, the country stopped. Yeah. We stood still and sat down and listened and watched and were fascinated.
Igor Yeah. Hey, can I, can I make one more question about, uh, because I think it’s very curious, you know, what’s the real perspective from someone who lived at, at that time I didn’t, about the Cold War. So, we study at school that Cold War, as it was a very tense moment in the history that everyone was scared of nuclear war and it was very tense. Right? So my question is, like, when you think about that time, let’s say on the seventies, beginning of the eighties, I think, uh, did you have a personal, uh, feeling of this tensiveness or it like, just when we look back today, we can tell it was tense, like in your daily lives, would you think about that or it was whatever?
Frank Uh, who’s this for? Ismar or for myself?
Igor I think it can be Isma and then you. Okay.
Frank Like now, uh, I don’t know if everyone feels something like that because I suppose suddenly Putin can press a bottle and destroy the words. And until I, I took knowledge. I, I know, I knew about that. I, I always thought that at the moment, everything here can be destroyed. I thought all the time that, and just saying that I think now.
Igor Okay. So you, now you still have this feeling that, and you think about that in time. Okay.
Ismar Yeah. Because the tension among Russia, Ukraine and the NATO are more saying, uh, United States, and now China inside the polemical subjects.
Frank Easy question is not in my case. Sorry. Igor, easy question. Igor in my case, a very complicated answer. Uh, so I need to start that. Um, I have a German passport. So Germany was at the epicenter of the cold war.
Igor Yes.
Frank However, I was not in Germany during the first part of the cold war. I lived in Australia from 1966 to 1979.
And we were involved in a very hot war in Vietnam and Australian troops were actively engaged in combat, uh, supporting the Americans in, um, in Vietnam. And so, especially towards the end of the Vietnam war, as the, as the North Vietnamese were slowly advancing, uh, South to Saigon. Um, it was, it was the daily news.
So the cold war, uh, in actual fact, um, took on a different dimension. The theater for our cold war was in Vietnam and it was a hot war, and it was a proxy war. It was, it was the Chinese against the Americans. Yeah. Uh, just happening to be on Vietnamese territory. And I remember one particular scene. Um, I was, I was at the University of Sydney, and I was sitting, um, minding my own business and, uh, uh, an Asian person sat a couple of meters away from me and we got into talking and it turned out that he was a Vietnamese who had fled Vietnam at, towards the end of the war. And he was one of these, what they called “Boat People”. So they took boats, you know, um, really, really shabby boats and they somehow made their way from Vietnam, from Vietnam, past Indonesia, and managed to land on the Australian coast, uh, really, really treacherous journeys. And he survived it and he, we sort of got into talking and then that stopped.
So, I then returned to Germany in 1979 and got caught up in the period when there was a huge discussion between, um, uh, uh, between, um, the Americans and the, the Germans and the Europeans, because the Americans wanted to deploy the so-called Pershing missiles in Germany, missiles that were capable of carrying nuclear warheads.
Now, to make the situation even more complicated, Germany was the instigator of the First and the Second World Wars. So Germany had a very strong peace movement, had a very strong developing, growing ecological movement. And the last thing that German, uh, people wanted was to have nuclear warheads on their own soil, especially when on the other side was the same nation, the same mentality, but under a different dictatorship. Yeah. And there is probably no German family, including mine that was not somehow separated that the majority of us all had relatives on the other side in East Germany. So, the cold war actually was very, very real.
And during the time in Australia, um, my father’s contract allowed us to go back to Germany, um, every three years. And I remember sit standing on the German German border and I sort of, and I listed what stopped and what began on the other side. So, I started with the local village was town boundary. It moved to the greater council in which this town was located. It moved to the state in which this town was located. It then moved up to the, um, up to the, um, to the national border of Germany. So the, so where the West German territory stopped and East German territory started, it went from there to what was then the European Common Market or what is now the European union. Uh, and it finished with NATO and on the other side, 60 meters, and it was only divided by a stream. And of course, all the, all the, the, the, the, the watch towers and the fences, et cetera. On the other side, you had the same thing back in reverse. So they started with the, with the Warsaw pact. Uh, they didn’t have anything like the European Union or the Common Market. So it went down to the national border of, uh, East Germany, which was a sovereign country in its own right. Yeah. Um, down to the, the administrative districts all the way to the village that was on the other side of the, of this river. Uh, and that really brought home to me that we, um, you know, that we were actually one, one mentality, one group, but there was this horrible fence dividing us.
Igor Oh, wow.
Frank And so we had this discussion about the nuclear warheads coming to Germany, uh, at that time, military service was compulsory, but because I had lived in Australia, I somehow managed to, to go through the net, but some of my, um, fellow, uh, students had to, they tried to become conscientious objectors and they actually had to go to court and declare and argue why they could, could not go to the military service to defend their country in case a Russian, uh, or a Warsaw pact, um, aggression, uh, it was, it was enormously difficult.
Um, so the missiles never came. Um, and then to add to the complexity of, of this very simple question that you posed, I lived in London when the wall came down, but, but I happened to be in Germany visiting my parents when, um, when by a sheer misinterpretation of a written note, the Interior Minister of the East German government announced that, um, because there had been so much trouble brewing and so many demonstrations that the East German government was forced to relax, um, the two laws that made people stop leaving East Germany, there’d been a mass exodus of people to Hungary, to the Czech Republic. And, uh, the country was, was bleeding people. And the interior minister made a fatal mistake by saying that the border would be open, effective immediately. And that was, that was on the 9th of November 1989. And I happened to be in Germany watching television late at night when this whole scenario unfolded.
I then went back to the UK and then I witnessed the, um, the negotiations and the discussions, uh, about what should happen with these two Germanies. Should they be reunited as one sovereign state? Um, or should there be two different countries? And of course, the East German economy was on its knees. The West Germany was, was, was, was at that time, very, very strong.
And to add even more to the complexity, we were governed by a Prime Minister called Margaret Thatcher, who was very conservative, who remembered the second world war, maybe not directly, but through her parents and who was taking a very, very strong position on avoiding, uh, a reunification of Germany. She didn’t want that because she was afraid of a united Germany being much stronger than this thing, called Great Britain. Yeah. Uh, so, um, and then, and then the Cold War also took on a very personal dimension.
I had relatives in East Berlin. And when I left Australia in 1979, I spent two and a half months in the United States, traveling around the entire country. I got into Germany at the end of 1979, and I wanted to cross the border to visit my, my relatives. And I, it took me, it was a straightforward process, but it took me 20 minutes to wait while the person behind the booth disappeared with my passport. So I, I was standing in sort of this holding area, waiting for the man to reappear. And, um, the reason he disappeared is because he had, because I had this gigantic US visa in my passport, which was still valid. Yeah. So, I had just come, I had just come fresh from the United States and was about to enter East Berlin. It’s just, you know, not a good thing to do it at that time. And eventually I was allowed to pass, and I changed my 25 Marks, um, into East German currency. So I had exchanged a hard currency for a very soft currency. I couldn’t do anything with it, but okay. And while I was waiting for my, I think it was my cousin or something. Um, while I was waiting for my cousin to, to, to meet me, I was approached by a young, not a young, I was approached by a short middle-aged person who wanted to know whether I was interested in exchanging further West German marks into East German marks. And I declined. Fifteen, 20 years later, I not really thought about it. I had some colleagues in, in East Germany.
Okay. So the country had reunited, we were working together. Yeah. And we were, um, it was basically, um, economically there were differences, but politically we were one, we were one organization, and I had some colleagues in, in, in the Eastern part of the country.
And I told him this story and he said, yeah, if you would go to the authorities that are working through all the secret service files and all the historical documents, if you go to the authorities and put in a request, uh, you’ll probably find a report of what you did that day and where you were.
Igor Oh, wow.
Frank He said it was probably somebody who was put to tag me and follow me to make sure that because I had this dirty, great visa from the United States in my passport, that I wasn’t going to do something that the East German authorities wouldn’t approve of. Yeah. Wow. So, um, that’s the cold war from my perspective in a completely different, um, different, uh, scenario. So I wasn’t actually there for most of it, but I got the tail end and I got it full, full blow. I got the full blown story.
Igor Yeah. Yes you did. Um, so yeah. Um, okay. Thank you for sharing.
Frank Yeah. It’s a memory. Yeah. That I will never forget. And I quite, uh, and it’s one that I’m happy to have because it just in this tapestry of life, um, um, makes life richer. Yeah. Even if it’s not a pleasant experience. Okay. Ismar, we have time is running the final question from you and I’m going to stay out of it. I’ll just give it to Igor to, to answer. Okay.
Ismar Okay. Uh, it’s my impression that today, more than, you know, all other years in my life,
I suppose that the people mainly young people, or maybe, uh, not so young, but maybe the people around 30 or less, they are much eager to have fame to be very famous. It doesn’t matter if the famous will be a change in money or not. I think for some people, fame is more interesting, more important than money. What do you think about and how do you think he is it happening now?
Igor Well, well, I’m not sure if people of my generation because I’m 31. So I think, uh, I, we are talking about my generation. I wouldn’t say they are like more eager to be famous than the generation before. I, I wouldn’t think that. I think people, people always wanted to be famous, uh, in general, but now we have more possibilities, and we have quick compensations for being famous because if we think about past generations to be famous, you have to be an actor, a very famous actor, maybe some businessman, which was quite difficult and very strictly for a bunch of people. Now we have more possibilities. So? I can be famous in my room. I don’t have to go to actors school. I don’t have to go to a blockbuster, anything like that. And I have very short benefits of being famous. So, I have, if I have followers on Instagram, I have more people talking about me, which kind of massage my ego. Uh, if I perceive in a, in a career of being famous as an influencer, for example, are you have brand deals? I maybe may make some money. So, I don’t, like, I’m not saying that’s the right path. I think that’s probably not the right path to seek fame by itself. Uh, I think fame would be good if it was a consequence of a good work, but I think I don’t think we are like more eager to be famous. I think we, as human beings, we always have been eager to be famous, but now we have more possibilities. And like the impact of being famous is quicker than before. So, like that, that’s like my broad view of the things. And my opinion is that like people we realize so enough, I think it’s just a phase of our society that being famous for the sake of being famous doesn’t make any sense, not financially, not in terms of purpose, not in terms of happiness, not in terms of career. It’s just, it’s just a phase in the society. I think it will pass people are realizing that it doesn’t make sense to be famous just because you are famous, you know. That’s my opinion.
Frank Okay, gentlemen, I think we could continue talking quite, quite at length, especially sort of as the alcohol continues. My glass of wine is empty. Ismar, Igor, thank you very much for bouncing these questions back and forth. I will process this and make and make it available to you. And Ismar, you can have the second last word, Igor, you can then have the last word.
Ismar We have discussed two interesting subjects. Of course, we could say more interesting points about memory, because I think it’s something that maybe it’s more important. And fame is something that maybe all those subjects are an abstract subject. But I think about fame, for example, Igor had a good point because we have more chance to be famous today.
But I think it’s a terrible moment because many people that want to be famous, they don’t have content enough to be famous and to show, to benefit people who follow them, who listen to them. And I think it’s a problem because if you have something good to share with people, I think it’s good.
But as I say many times to Frank, I suppose that we can grow up in a positive way because our species, at least at my point of view, we are in a bad point. But that’s respect from some changes. That’s it. Thank you all for your answers, your questions.
Frank Okay, you’re welcome. Igor, the final word.
Ismar I don’t have that much to add, just thank you for your time and I hope you guys have a good evening.
Evening and afternoon. Okay, see you next week.